MosesModel

Thursday, August 23, 2012

Ergun Caner: Does Emir Know? - Addendum

If I may, I would like to review the last video. I neglected to mention that both Ergun and Emir claim they were converted on Thursdays.

In Unveiling Islam, Ergun says that he held out until the last day of the revival and converted on a Thursday. Emir says that he converted November 4, 1982, a Thursday. In the last episode, Ergun claimed Emir and Erdem converted on a Sunday.

Ergun maintains that he never intentionally misled anyone. What are the odds that I can provide you with two more examples of him claiming he converted the same day that his brother?

Sources:

Unveiling Islam Google Books

General Session #2 - Dr. Ergun Caner -- June 1, 2007 http://evangelism.fbcpearlcity.com/resources.html

Music:
"Monster" by Peach Stealing Monkeys from PeachStealingMonkeys.com
"Spanish Summer" and "Rags 2 Riches Rag" from AudioNautix.com
"The Bottom" by Josh Woodward from joshwoodward.com

Cited Links

Tim Lee's statements
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/05/after-11-months-liberty-university.html

September 25, 2010 article where Ergun says he did not lie.
http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2010/sep/25/caner-defends-background-bristol-speech-ar-524525/

The unedited Marine videos on Viddler
http://www.viddler.com/explore/jsin/videos/2/
http://www.viddler.com/explore/jsin/videos/1/

Unedited Marine Videos on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxmIMR1LNos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpDm3Z9tI-M

Ergun Caner's Apology
http://sbctoday.com/2010/02/25/statement-from-dr-ergun-caner/

Norman Geisler's statements
http://www.normangeisler.net/articles/ErgunCaner/

Saturday, August 18, 2012

Canyon Creek Baptist Church 7/31/2011

Ergun mostly claims in his sermons that he was a High School Senior when he converted in 1982. Ergun's Senior year was 1983-84, so he was not a Senior in 1982. However, he and his brothers claim Erdem and Emir converted about a year after Ergun. (Emir's conversion is even dated November 4, 1982.) The logical inference of his brothers converting a year after his Senior year, is that Ergun had already graduated by that time. Until recently, I only had two examples of Ergun directly claiming to have been in college during his brother's conversions. (These are going to be mentioned in an episode of "Does Emir Know?".) Recently, FBCWatchdog encouraged me to listen to Ergun's post scandal sermons and I found this one from Canyon Creek Baptist Church, July 31, 2011.

(32:50) “I moved to this country isolated from you as a Muslim. I looked different. I worshiped a different god. My father devout in the mosque, we build mosques like missionaries to you.

I want nothing to do with you people. I hate the Christians. I assume you hate me back.

I go into high school at Gahanna Lincoln High School, Gahanna, Ohio; isolated. One boy met me at my well. It wasn’t a guy on TV. It wasn’t somebody famous. It wasn’t TBN. It wasn’t Christian radio. It wasn’t somebody with purple hair crying purple tears. It wasn’t somebodies name who was on the side of a book or the side of a building, because I would have paid no attention to any of that.

You know who reached me for the gospel? One high school kid who wouldn’t shut up. Jerry Tacket saw me isolated. Started my Freshman year and wouldn’t quit until my Senior year. Invited me to everything, hotdog hogouts, pizza pig outs, ‘lock ins’.

‘Lock ins’. I would do a hotdog thing in a heartbeat, but ‘lock ins’ are of the devil. Three o’clock in the morning you want to stay up and do something. I want to sleep at three o’clock in the morning, instead of finding kids hiding in stair wells, praying together.

I said no to everything. He didn’t quit. I want you to think about the people that you love the most that don’t know Jesus yet. You invited them. You’ve prayed for them. You’ve loved them. You’ve brought them. They may have come to an cantata. They came to a special Sunday. They’ve come to a number of things then they started making excuses. They didn’t want to come anymore. Then after a while that they don’t even make excuses. They just don’t want to come. They maybe even make fun of you for coming. You love them. I know. You pray for them to be saved. I know, but after a while you stop inviting, because you know what they are going to say.

Here’s the deal. How many times we knock on a door. Jack Chick track in our hand. ‘Hey I’d like to invite you to’ Boom! Door slams. What do we automatically do? ‘Huh, he must not be one of the elect.’ I scratch him off my list and move to the next house. ‘Heathen!’ Not Jesus and not Jerry Tacket. He kept coming. Every time I said, ‘no’, he found a way to bring up a ‘yes’. He just kept coming. In my Senior year, when I finally decided, you know what, I’ll show you. I walked into the Stelzer Road Baptist Church in Columbus, Ohio, right near the airport."

As usual, he clearly stated that he converted during his Senior year. As usual, he also stated that Jerry Tacket pursued him for four years: Freshman year through Senior year. The next part is not so usual.

(43:35) "A year later, I am in college and I find out that God has met my boys at the well, both my brothers have got saved. Somebody shared the gospel with them, and someone shared the gospel with me."

As I mentioned above this is unusual. I have only found this claim in two other sermons. I am surprised that only a year after Geisler defended him, Ergun would pull out this whopper, especially since Unveiling Islam claims that Ergun was the one who invited Emir to church.

Listen for yourself. The sermon is available here: http://www.canyoncreekbc.org/resources/online-media/teacher/7-ergun-caner.html

Wealth of Prophecy Interview 7/30/12

Around 22:00, Ergun begins to give his testimony and he says that Jerry Tacket pursued him for "four years" and he converted during his Senior year.

Ergun was born November 3, 1966.
His brother, Emir, was converted a year after Ergun, November 4, 1982.
Ergun's Senior year was 1983-84.

We don't know when Ergun converted, but in order for Emir to have convert a year later, it was probably during his Sophomore year, 1981-82. His conversion could be no later than the fall of his Junior year in 1982.

Monday, July 30, 2012

Quick Note on the Delay

I have run into a couple of snags with the next video in the Emir series.

I haven't been able to get it to render correctly.
I left something out of the introduction video
I have a ten minute clip of Ergun to include and it is making the video really long.

I hope to have an addendum to the Introduction released by the end of the week. Part 2 itself is going to have to be divided into Part 2 & 3 (and maybe 4). I like posting longer clips of Ergun and I have never posted a 9-10 minute clip, but this one needs to be placed in the Emir series. Long clips do a great deal to defeat the charge that Ergun's fibs are based on edited videos. However long videos are hard to watch. I know I check the length of a youtube video before I decide to watch it.

My main desire is to get people to watch the unedited stuff anyway. I need something short enough to catch their attention. I hope if they do not conclude that Ergun lied to them, they will be better prepared for when he lies to them in the future.

God Bless,

Moses

mosesmodel@yahoo.com

Wednesday, July 25, 2012

My Promise about Ergun Caner

I kept forgetting the exact details of what I pledged, so about a year ago, I decided to make a video.

If Ergun Caner and Norman Geisler will post a written apology/retraction of Ergun denying he lied to those marines, I will delete all videos about him. I will post a new one proclaiming his repentance. 1 2

When I made that pledge, I had not listened to as many of Ergun's sermons as I have now. Before August 2010, I had listened to him in Convo, Campus Church, and Seminary Chapel. I did not remember him making any of the statements that he supposedly made in the edited youtube videos. Thanks to Jason Smathers and Turretinfan, I became aware of the Marine videos. Even though, I was convinced that I could prove that Ergun lied, April 15, 2005, I did not think that I could prove that he lied any other day. Even with prompting from Ergun defenders, I tried to stay with what I felt I could prove. At the time, I thought Moses Model was done making Ergun videos. Edited videos never convinced me and the only unedited sources I had were Marine videos on viddler. There are only so many ways you can remix that material. In an argument with another seminary student on twitter I conceded that I would remove my videos if the two conditions above were met.

According to this seminary student, Ergun admitted he lied to a private group at Thomas Road, September 2010. Supposedly, he told this private group that he did not wish to apologize publicly, because of how the bloggers would react. The student urged me to take this anecdote as evidence of repentance and evidence that I biblically needed to remove my videos.

This was insufficient for many reasons. First, the Marine videos had pressed on me the limitations of anecdotal evidence. I needed more than an esoteric anecdote that Ergun did not even want me to know about. The extremely amateur videos that I produced were sourced by hours of unedited video footage. I did not rely on anecdotes to accuse Ergun of lying. Reasonably, I should not rely on anecdotes to accuse Ergun of repenting.

Second, Ergun seemed to be trying to have it both ways. After all, he wrote on the internet that he did not intentionally mislead people. Internet magic meant that though he published once, it was read over and over. Even though his printed lies were removed from his website, they were archived at SBCToday and viewed and copied several times. Even if Ergun repented privately at Thomas Road, it was/is more likely that someone believed his public printed lies about his honesty rather than heard about the private repentance of those same lies.

Third, Ergun's friends were not under the impression that he had needed to repent of lying. A mutual friend that I and Ergun share posted his "apology" to facebook. Though I do not remember if it was after September, this person had posted Norman Geisler's defenses prior. If Ergun was repentant, why did he not correct this person and Norman? Why did he let them continue to maintain that he never lied? May 2011, Marine evangelist Tim Lee said that the Liberty committee "never once found that he [Ergun] lied." If Ergun repented, how did Tim not know? In Ergun's shoes, I would not let my friends continue to defend me.

Since during the summer of 2011, I could only prove that Ergun lied April 15, 2005, I only pledged that Norman and Ergun must apologize for Ergun's lies that particular day to those Marines. A year later, I can prove so much more and have listened to hours of Ergun's sermons (mostly cataloged by Turretinfan, BibleWheel, Babylonian Squirrel, and James White). A year later, Ergun still publicly maintains he did not intentionally mislead people. He continues to lie by letting his printed lies stand. A year later, Ergun is still bearing false witness in churches.

Still a year later, (assuming that this seminary student will not release me from my word) I will remove all my Ergun Caner videos from my youtube channel if only Ergun and Norman will admit that Ergun lied that day to those Marines. Ergun, if you want Moses Model to leave, all you need is a pint of honesty.

Update 6/14/14

Last June, Ergun and I had the following email exchange about the post. I promised to keep the exchange off the internet, but now since the exchange has been submitted as evidence in the lawsuit, I want to update the post to at least give Ergun's claims some air time.

5. On your blog you state an LU high official told you that Caner "privately repented at Thomas Road Baptist Church," but that he was afraid to do so publicly because of the bloggers. Caner would like the name of this “high official.” If a name is not provided, then please publicly state that the statement was not made truthfully.

I do not believe that I stated that any "high official" told me these things. This is what I wrote:

“According to this seminary student, Ergun admitted he lied to a private group at Thomas Road, September 2010. Supposedly, he told this private group that he did not wish to apologize publicly, because of how the bloggers would react. The student urged me to take this anecdote as evidence of repentance and evidence that I biblically needed to remove my videos.”

The seminary student was Phil Shouse who tweets under the handle @philshouse. He used Tweetdeck to extend his tweets so a lot of our conversation is lost. I remember him saying that Ergun repented at Thomas Road Baptist Church and was afraid to do so publicly because of the criticism he would receive from bloggers. This conversation was held publically on twitter May 24, 2011. Later, Phil blocked me on twitter for my criticism of Ergun.

I fully acknowledge that I maybe misremembered the rumor that I was told. JD Hall has an email claiming that Ergun repented to the board, not at Thomas Road. Even though I never said "high official, Johnny Hunt would count as a "high official". Also if you read the post, I was very dismissive of the anecdote.

A couple of things need to also be noted. To the best of my knowledge, I have never misquoted Ergun, but here Ergun misquoted me. Further, Ergun demands the benefit of the doubt for all of his factual statements that were self-contradictory, but he asks me to "publicly state that the statement was not made truthfully". If Ergun will not give me the benefit of the doubt, why is it reasonable for me to give him the benefit of the doubt?

Further Ergun has slandered me now multiple times in this lawsuit. The most glaring example is last April when he said that I worked for him and he fired me. This week, he now claims that he had no prior knowledge of me before filing the lawsuit. Given how much back and forth, Ergun and I have had about my relationship with him, both statements cannot reasonably be made truthfully. Given that they are the definition of self contradictory, together they cannot both be held honestly.

Ergun's self righteous baloney that preaches do as I say, but not as I do; is the definition of hypocrisy. I honestly wonder what faith that someone can hold that they still consider Ergun an honest man.

Friday, July 20, 2012

Ergun Caner: Does Emir Know? - Introduction

Welcome to another episode of "what are the odds". Many have wondered about Emir Caner's position on his brother's fabrications. The summer of 2010, he defended his brother saying, Ergun had demonstrated "unquestionable Christian character". This was just "a few incorrect statements".

"His character, integrity, and bold witness are truly an emulation of a shepherd's heart and an evangelist's passion."

March 15, 2012, Emir referred to Ergun as "one of God's most anointed expository preachers". Now to be fair, Emir never said that Ergun did not lie or did not intentionally mislead people. However calling his brother a man of "unquestionable Christian character" seems to suggest Ergun did not lie. Here is the problem, Ergun has lied about Emir. Does Emir know this? Maybe not.
Let's explore the issue.

To understand this first video you need some background. Unveiling Islam authored by Ergun and Emir, explains Ergun's brothers' conversions this way.

"Ergun's brothers, however, listened. Erdem accepted Christ in the basement of their home. Ergun then invited Emir to a revival service the following year. There, for the first time in his life, Emir heard that God loved him and desired to have a personal relationship with him. Though he had been to church before, this was the first time he could recall hearing a preacher speak openly and honestly about the exclusivity of the Gospel. Only through the blood of Jesus, spilt on the cross, can someone be saved. Yet the preacher also spoke compassionately about God's desire to save everyone.

Although there was only one way, the path was open for all who would believe. On November 4, 1982, Emir was born again."

Simple enough. Erdem accepted Christ in their basement. Ergun invited Emir to a revival service the following year. November 4, 1982, a Thursday, Emir was born again. The story seems simple to tell. Ergun however in at least two instances will get the story horribly wrong. I will let you decide if it was intentional or not.

Let me set the next example up for you. Ergun had already claimed a myriad of false things. He said he came to America in 1978 and he was 14 in 1978. Yet he really came to America before August of 1970. He turned 12 in November 3, 1978.

Next Claim: He was a High School Senior in 1982 with the implication of being near college age, 18 years old. Again this is wrong. Ergun graduated with the class of 1984. He ended his Sophomore year in 1982 and began his Junior year that fall. He turned 16 in November 3, 1982.

All of this will be handled in greater detail in a later video. Yet you needed the greater context of the main clip. Here Ergun claimed that he converted in November 4, 1982. November 4, 1982? Why does that sound familiar? Oh yeah, that was the day that Unveiling Islam says that Emir was saved.

What are the odds?

He claimed that he was thrown out of his house post-conversion and had to live in garages and basements. Ergun's mother had primary custody of Ergun and his brothers since the divorce. His father only had partial custody. When his father disowned him, Ergun did not have to live in garages and basements.

Both of Ergun's brothers were not saved after he preached a seven minute sermon...at least not according to them. Ergun said some things that were grossly false. While you ponder if this was an intentional or unintentionally, perhaps you should wonder "does Emir know?"

If Ergun never intentionally misled anyone, what are the odds that I can provide other examples?

Sources:

Unveiling Islam http://books.google.com/books?id=HJJ0posDfDUC&lpg=PA17&vq=erdem&pg=PA19#v=snippet&q=erdem&f=false

General Session #2 - Dr. Ergun Caner -- June 1, 2007 http://evangelism.fbcpearlcity.com/resources.html

Music:
"Monster" by Peach Stealing Monkeys from PeachStealingMonkeys.com
"Spanish Summer" and "Rags 2 Riches Rag" from AudioNautix.com
"The Bottom" by Josh Woodward from joshwoodward.com

Cited Links

Tim Lee's statements
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/05/after-11-months-liberty-university.html

September 25, 2010 article where Ergun says he did not lie.
http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2010/sep/25/caner-defends-background-bristol-speech-ar-524525/

The unedited Marine videos on Viddler
http://www.viddler.com/explore/jsin/videos/2/
http://www.viddler.com/explore/jsin/videos/1/

Unedited Marine Videos on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxmIMR1LNos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpDm3Z9tI-M

Ergun Caner's Apology
http://sbctoday.com/2010/02/25/statement-from-dr-ergun-caner/

Norman Geisler's statements
http://www.normangeisler.net/insupportofcaner.html
http://www.normangeisler.net/infurtherdefenseofcaner.html
http://www.normangeisler.net/indefenseofcaner.html

Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Ergun Caner is speaking at En Fuego 2012

"En Fuego is Spanish for "On Fire". Ergun Caner is going to speak at En Fuego 2012, the largest Christian Music Festival.

"En Fuego is Spanish for "On Fire". The event is a one-day rally where students from every denomination and background come together for the purpose of worship and seeing Jesus Christ change lives. An outdoor event, the rally has a very intense yet intimate camp-like feel and some have referred to it as 'the Christian Woodstock of your generation.'"

Perhaps En Fuego 2012 does not know Ergun lied to our countries heroes. Ergun Caner should apologize to those Marines. En Fuego 2012 should not allow him to speak until he does. As "a worship experience for believers and an evangelistic outreach for the lost", this does not seem like too much to ask. Some might say that a Christian minister like Ergun Caner, would never apologize for lying to our Marines. I say God is great. God also can do great things through his worshipers. As always the unedited videos are provided in the video description. Also, you can click on the annotations.