I have run into a couple of snags with the next video in the Emir series.
I haven't been able to get it to render correctly.
I left something out of the introduction video
I have a ten minute clip of Ergun to include and it is making the video really long.
I hope to have an addendum to the Introduction released by the end of the week. Part 2 itself is going to have to be divided into Part 2 & 3 (and maybe 4). I like posting longer clips of Ergun and I have never posted a 9-10 minute clip, but this one needs to be placed in the Emir series. Long clips do a great deal to defeat the charge that Ergun's fibs are based on edited videos. However long videos are hard to watch. I know I check the length of a youtube video before I decide to watch it.
My main desire is to get people to watch the unedited stuff anyway. I need something short enough to catch their attention. I hope if they do not conclude that Ergun lied to them, they will be better prepared for when he lies to them in the future.
I kept forgetting the exact details of what I pledged, so about a year ago, I decided to make a video.
If Ergun Caner and Norman Geisler will post a written apology/retraction of Ergun denying he lied to those marines, I will delete all videos about him. I will post a new one proclaiming his repentance. 12
When I made that pledge, I had not listened to as many of Ergun's sermons as I have now. Before August 2010, I had listened to him in Convo, Campus Church, and Seminary Chapel. I did not remember him making any of the statements that he supposedly made in the edited youtube videos. Thanks to Jason Smathers and Turretinfan, I became aware of the Marine videos. Even though, I was convinced that I could prove that Ergun lied, April 15, 2005, I did not think that I could prove that he lied any other day. Even with prompting from Ergun defenders, I tried to stay with what I felt I could prove. At the time, I thought Moses Model was done making Ergun videos. Edited videos never convinced me and the only unedited sources I had were Marine videos on viddler. There are only so many ways you can remix that material. In an argument with another seminary student on twitter I conceded that I would remove my videos if the two conditions above were met.
According to this seminary student, Ergun admitted he lied to a private group at Thomas Road, September 2010. Supposedly, he told this private group that he did not wish to apologize publicly, because of how the bloggers would react. The student urged me to take this anecdote as evidence of repentance and evidence that I biblically needed to remove my videos.
This was insufficient for many reasons. First, the Marine videos had pressed on me the limitations of anecdotal evidence. I needed more than an esoteric anecdote that Ergun did not even want me to know about. The extremely amateur videos that I produced were sourced by hours of unedited video footage. I did not rely on anecdotes to accuse Ergun of lying. Reasonably, I should not rely on anecdotes to accuse Ergun of repenting.
Second, Ergun seemed to be trying to have it both ways. After all, he wrote on the internet that he did not intentionally mislead people. Internet magic meant that though he published once, it was read over and over. Even though his printed lies were removed from his website, they were archived at SBCToday and viewed and copied several times. Even if Ergun repented privately at Thomas Road, it was/is more likely that someone believed his public printed lies about his honesty rather than heard about the private repentance of those same lies.
Third, Ergun's friends were not under the impression that he had needed to repent of lying. A mutual friend that I and Ergun share posted his "apology" to facebook. Though I do not remember if it was after September, this person had posted Norman Geisler's defenses prior. If Ergun was repentant, why did he not correct this person and Norman? Why did he let them continue to maintain that he never lied? May 2011, Marine evangelist Tim Lee said that the Liberty committee "never once found that he [Ergun] lied." If Ergun repented, how did Tim not know? In Ergun's shoes, I would not let my friends continue to defend me.
Since during the summer of 2011, I could only prove that Ergun lied April 15, 2005, I only pledged that Norman and Ergun must apologize for Ergun's lies that particular day to those Marines. A year later, I can prove so much more and have listened to hours of Ergun's sermons (mostly cataloged by Turretinfan, BibleWheel, Babylonian Squirrel, and James White). A year later, Ergun still publicly maintains he did not intentionally mislead people. He continues to lie by letting his printed lies stand. A year later, Ergun is still bearing false witness in churches.
Still a year later, (assuming that this seminary student will not release me from my word) I will remove all my Ergun Caner videos from my youtube channel if only Ergun and Norman will admit that Ergun lied that day to those Marines. Ergun, if you want Moses Model to leave, all you need is a pint of honesty.
Update 6/14/14
Last June, Ergun and I had the following email exchange about the post. I promised to keep the exchange off the internet, but now since the exchange has been submitted as evidence in the lawsuit, I want to update the post to at least give Ergun's claims some air time.
5. On your blog you state an LU high official told you that Caner "privately repented at Thomas Road Baptist Church," but that he was afraid to do so publicly because of the bloggers. Caner would like the name of this “high official.” If a name is not provided, then please publicly state that the statement was not made truthfully.
I do not believe that I stated that any "high official" told me these things. This is what I wrote:
“According to this seminary student, Ergun admitted he lied to a private group at Thomas Road, September 2010. Supposedly, he told this private group that he did not wish to apologize publicly, because of how the bloggers would react. The student urged me to take this anecdote as evidence of repentance and evidence that I biblically needed to remove my videos.”
The seminary student was Phil Shouse who tweets under the handle @philshouse. He used Tweetdeck to extend his tweets so a lot of our conversation is lost. I remember him saying that Ergun repented at Thomas Road Baptist Church and was afraid to do so publicly because of the criticism he would receive from bloggers. This conversation was held publically on twitter May 24, 2011. Later, Phil blocked me on twitter for my criticism of Ergun.
A couple of things need to also be noted. To the best of my knowledge, I have never misquoted Ergun, but here Ergun misquoted me. Further, Ergun demands the benefit of the doubt for all of his factual statements that were self-contradictory, but he asks me to "publicly state that the statement was not made truthfully". If Ergun will not give me the benefit of the doubt, why is it reasonable for me to give him the benefit of the doubt?
Further Ergun has slandered me now multiple times in this lawsuit. The most glaring example is last April when he said that I worked for him and he fired me. This week, he now claims that he had no prior knowledge of me before filing the lawsuit. Given how much back and forth, Ergun and I have had about my relationship with him, both statements cannot reasonably be made truthfully. Given that they are the definition of self contradictory, together they cannot both be held honestly.
Ergun's self righteous baloney that preaches do as I say, but not as I do; is the definition of hypocrisy. I honestly wonder what faith that someone can hold that they still consider Ergun an honest man.
Welcome to another episode of "what are the odds". Many have wondered about Emir Caner's position on his brother's fabrications. The summer of 2010, he defended his brother saying, Ergun had demonstrated "unquestionable Christian character". This was just "a few incorrect statements".
"His character, integrity, and bold witness are truly an emulation of a shepherd's heart and an evangelist's passion."
March 15, 2012, Emir referred to Ergun as "one of God's most anointed expository preachers". Now to be fair, Emir never said that Ergun did not lie or did not intentionally mislead people. However calling his brother a man of "unquestionable Christian character" seems to suggest Ergun did not lie. Here is the problem, Ergun has lied about Emir. Does Emir know this? Maybe not.
Let's explore the issue.
To understand this first video you need some background. Unveiling Islam authored by Ergun and Emir, explains Ergun's brothers' conversions this way.
"Ergun's brothers, however, listened. Erdem accepted Christ in the basement of their home. Ergun then invited Emir to a revival service the following year. There, for the first time in his life, Emir heard that God loved him and desired to have a personal relationship with him. Though he had been to church before, this was the first time he could recall hearing a preacher speak openly and honestly about the exclusivity of the Gospel. Only through the blood of Jesus, spilt on the cross, can someone be saved. Yet the preacher also spoke compassionately about God's desire to save everyone.
Although there was only one way, the path was open for all who would believe. On November 4, 1982, Emir was born again."
Simple enough. Erdem accepted Christ in their basement. Ergun invited Emir to a revival service the following year. November 4, 1982, a Thursday, Emir was born again. The story seems simple to tell. Ergun however in at least two instances will get the story horribly wrong. I will let you decide if it was intentional or not.
Let me set the next example up for you. Ergun had already claimed a myriad of false things. He said he came to America in 1978 and he was 14 in 1978. Yet he really came to America before August of 1970. He turned 12 in November 3, 1978.
Next Claim: He was a High School Senior in 1982 with the implication of being near college age, 18 years old. Again this is wrong. Ergun graduated with the class of 1984. He ended his Sophomore year in 1982 and began his Junior year that fall. He turned 16 in November 3, 1982.
All of this will be handled in greater detail in a later video. Yet you needed the greater context of the main clip. Here Ergun claimed that he converted in November 4, 1982. November 4, 1982? Why does that sound familiar? Oh yeah, that was the day that Unveiling Islam says that Emir was saved.
What are the odds?
He claimed that he was thrown out of his house post-conversion and had to live in garages and basements. Ergun's mother had primary custody of Ergun and his brothers since the divorce. His father only had partial custody. When his father disowned him, Ergun did not have to live in garages and basements.
Both of Ergun's brothers were not saved after he preached a seven minute sermon...at least not according to them. Ergun said some things that were grossly false. While you ponder if this was an intentional or unintentionally, perhaps you should wonder "does Emir know?"
If Ergun never intentionally misled anyone, what are the odds that I can provide other examples?
Music:
"Monster" by Peach Stealing Monkeys from PeachStealingMonkeys.com
"Spanish Summer" and "Rags 2 Riches Rag" from AudioNautix.com
"The Bottom" by Josh Woodward from joshwoodward.com
"En Fuego is Spanish for "On Fire". Ergun Caner is going to speak at En Fuego 2012, the largest Christian Music Festival.
"En Fuego is Spanish for "On Fire". The event is a one-day rally where students from every denomination and background come together for the purpose of worship and seeing Jesus Christ change lives. An outdoor event, the rally has a very intense yet intimate camp-like feel and some have referred to it as 'the Christian Woodstock of your generation.'"
Perhaps En Fuego 2012 does not know Ergun lied to our countries heroes. Ergun Caner should apologize to those Marines. En Fuego 2012 should not allow him to speak until he does. As "a worship experience for believers and an evangelistic outreach for the lost", this does not seem like too much to ask. Some might say that a Christian minister like Ergun Caner, would never apologize for lying to our Marines. I say God is great. God also can do great things through his worshipers. As always the unedited videos are provided in the video description. Also, you can click on the annotations.
Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. ~ John 14:13
I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. ~ Philippians 4:13
January 1, 2012, Ergun Caner spoke at C3 church.During his sermon, he made the following
statement:
[28:40] “And entering in to High School, that is exactly
what I was.I was, no questions, your
biggest critic.I was your enemy.And you know what reached me for the
gospel?It wasn’t a guy on TV.It wasn’t somebody with purple hair crying
purple tears…or some singer…or someone who had written books.It was one High School kid who wouldn’t shut
up.One kid who was never scared.Jerry Tackett hunted me…Freshman year…Sophomore year…Junior year. ‘Dude you want to come
with me to fourth quarter?’ ‘Dude you want to come to fifth quarter?’‘Want to come to the hotdog hog out…the pizza
pig out?’ ‘Want to come to our church Youth Group meeting?’‘Want to come roller skating?’I said ‘no’ a thousand different ways; a
thousand different times; and a thousand different permutations.‘No! No! Shut up! Leave me alone!’He never shut up.He had the eyes that Elisha talked
about.Greater resources do we have than
all the chariots they’ve got.He knew
his God was real, mine was fake and all he had to do was keep hunting me
down.
How many of us, if we go to somebody’s door and…or if we
share with a colleague or friend …you knock on the door and oh God help you if
you know on the door and you face hostility…and they slam the door in your face…
Most people would go ‘huh, well he must not be one of the elect’.‘I will mark him off my list.’‘Enjoy Hell.’‘Move on.’ Not Jerry Tackett…he kept coming.
Finally going into my
Senior year, I decide, ‘You know what? I’ll show you.’And I went, I walked, I said ‘alright, I’ll
come, come, come I’ll come.‘”
According to Unveiling Islam, Emir Caner converted a year
later than Ergun, November 4, 1982.Ergun was born, November 3, 1966 and graduated eighteen years later in
1984.If Emir’s date is correct he
converted during the Fall of Ergun’s Junior year in High School.About a year before Emir’s conversion would
have been from January 1981-till maybe May 1982 (the Spring of Ergun’s Freshman
year and his entire Sophomore year).Even Emir’s conversion date is a far cry from Ergun’s Senior year (Fall
1983-Spring 1984).The point is, we don’t
when Ergun converted, but it definitely was not his Senior year or even his
Junior year.
Later he also the following:
[34:17] “Year later, I’m disowned. A year later, I am studying for the ministry.I loss my family and I find out my church is
my family.Both brothers got saved.”
This whole quote seems to give the wrong idea.After claiming to be a Senior, he say he was “studying
for the ministry.”This may be so, but
he was studying as a Junior in High School.He seems to give the impression that he was a High School graduate.
He also says he was “disowned” and he loss his family.This also is at the very least
misleading.He was disowned by his
father, but he continued to live with his mother and brothers.His parents’ divorce was finalized in
1978.His mother had primary custody of
him and his brothers.When Ergun was
disowned, his church may have been his family, but so were his mother and
brothers.
I am sadden to see that Ergun's truce with the truth has expired less than two years after his dismissal as LBTS President. Unfortunately this is not the only 2012 example of Ergun saying he converted during his Senior year.
Like many of you, I do not speak Arabic, Turkish, Pashto, Dari, or Farsi,. When speakers of these languages say that Ergun was speaking gibberish; there is little way for me to tell. However there is one phrase that Ergun has repeated at least three times: April 15, 2005; June 2, 2007; and February 28, 2008.
If he is really quoting a foreign language, one should expect the quote and translation to remain the same over the years. They sound nothing alike. Even if he made quoting errors over the years what are the odds that I discovered the only three examples that do not line up? If you have any other examples, I would be glad to listen to them.
Do they sound the same to you? Skeptics are welcome.
The February 28, 2008 clip is from Ergun's Rick and Bubba interview. The links have recently gone dead. I will try to get the interview up. In the mean time, I can email you the interview. You can request the mp3 at Mosesmodel@yahoo.com
Also I owe the authors of two youtube videos for a lot of the information in this video. First, "frizzleyfrozzle" was the first one who pointed out that Ergun had gave two different phrases with the same translation.
Also James White's "Ergun Caner and Arabic: A Review" has been the best thing that has been done on Ergun's "Arabic".
Also, while I cannot cite a specific video, we all owe a debt to Mohammed Khan who first pointed out Ergun's inconsistencies and gibberish.
PS ~ My video has been mirrored by a MCDebate. The mirror has not been labeled a mirror or attributed to me. The title, "Ergun Caner, Fake Ex-Muslim Evangelical Leader Speaks Gibberish In Order to Fool His Audience", is not something that I endorse. I may hypothesize that it is true, but unlike many that I have cited above, I cannot prove. I speak none of the possible languages. Update 8/27/12 - MCDebate has apologized and attributed the video to me.
With all the listening to Ergun Caner sermons that I have done this summer, I needed this laugh. Thank you internet for podcasting errors.
Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner
Ergun Caner was born as a Muslim and immigrated into America during his childhood. Due to the persistent witnessing of a High School Christian friend, Ergun got saved. As a result, he was disowned by his family, but Argun’s faith in Christ was so real that he forsook people he loved to follow God who loved him enough to die for him. NowErgunis training future pastors and missionaries for the gospel ministry.
I wanted to interview Professor Caner today for you to hear his life changing story to realize that Muslims can be saved in America and God can do a wonderful work in their life. This is an exciting story, you will not want to miss.
I also discuss something he said in his book that he co-authoredwith his wife Emir, called ‘Unveiling Islam.’ I highly recommend this book, it can be found on Amazon. Click here
In the second interview, Ergun is told by the interviewer that he assumes Ergun came to America as a teenager. No definite lie here, but Ergun does not correct him. Later, Ergun says that he converted during his Senior year in High School. I am going to jot that one down as an almost definite lie considering Ergun's unrepentant history.
I am sad that 6/3/2012, Ergun finally was recorded with the Senior year fib again. However, I am giddy that he is married to his wife, Emir.
This is just a small sample of Ergun saying he came to America in 1978. Ergun came to this country before August 1970. Ergun maintains that he never intentionally mislead anyone. How does Norman Geisler reconcile this? Norman states, "It is well known that Caner became a US citizen in 1978."
Well known?
June 24, 2004, Ergun published an article on World Net Daily entitled, HATRIOTISM' & MICHAEL MOORE: TURKISH MUSLIM SAYS 'FAHRENHEIT 911' WRONG ON LIBERATION OF IRAQ
"I am a Persian Turkish immigrant raised as a Sunni Muslim, and in the interest of full disclosure, I must state that I left Islam in 1982, and became an American citizen."
This statement was repeated when Ergun published another article on Crosswalk, 25 days later, July 19, 2004, entitled more simply: Michael Moore and "Hatriotism"
Here he repeated:
"I am a Persian Turkish immigrant raised as a Sunni Muslim, and in the interest of full disclosure, I must state that I left Islam in 1982, the same year I became an American citizen."
Again, Ergun, himself, wrote at least twice in 2004 that he became a citizen in 1982. He stated this was a part of fully disclosing his conflict of interests. How can it both be "well known" that Ergun became a citizen in 1978 and "in the interest of full disclosure" that he became a citizen in 1982?
In fact does not both the 1978 and 1982 dates sound a little odd?
Ergun turned 12, November 3, 1978. Did Ergun really become a US Citizen at the age of 11 or 12? While not impossible, he seems rather young. Ergun turned 16, November 3, 1982. While possible, did Ergun really become a US Citizen at the age of 15 or 16?
It seems more likely that Ergun would become a citizen as an adult, after his eighteenth birthday, November 3, 1984.
"Caner was born in Stockholm, Sweden, became an American citizen in 1984 and a born-again Christian in 1982."
In fact, The Free Lance -- Star reported August 2, 2003 that Ergun received his citizenship in 1984.
So we have one year provided by Norman, which he says it was "well known" that Ergun gained his citizenship as a preteen.
We have another year, printed by Ergun himself, that says he gained his citizenship around 15 or 16.
We have yet another year reported by a newspaper that says Ergun gained his citizenship near adulthood in 1984.
I think it is safe to say that it is not in any way "well known" when Ergun received his citizenship. It is also pretty safe to say that Norman seems to call Ergun a liar; because Ergun himself wrote multiple times that he received his citizenship in 1982.
