May 7, 2011, Ergun spoke to Veritas Seminary. Norman was present. Around a half hour into the lecture, Ergun said the following.
My parents divorced, my father blamed my mother for our conversions.
Ergun's parents' divorce was finalized in 1978. Ergun's conversion was at the latest the Spring or Summer of 1982. The divorce was at least three years before his conversion. Norman knew this. Almost a year earlier, Norman wrote.
The Charge that His Family Did Not Disown Him When He Converted to Christianity as Caner Claimed that they Did.—It is true that after the divorce he was raised by his mother who obviously had not disowned him since she was no longer a Muslim. But his Muslim father who had remarried did disown him. This is the Muslim “family” to which he referred. This was very painful to him since he lived only a half hour away but could not even speak to him.
When Norman redid his website, In Defense of Ergun Caner, did not make the transition. However, the above quote shows that Norman knew the timeline, yet Ergun lied to his face. What a friend we have in Ergun.
PS ~ I have at least three more examples of this same lie. If you believe that this is a misstatement, how do you misstate something like this?
Here is a quick cheat sheet on his most common lies (or misstatements depending on your point of view.) You need to be prepared.
He was saved as a High School Senior- Ergun was born November 3, 1966. His 18th birthday was November 3, 1984. His Senior year was 1983-84. Emir claims that he was saved a year after Ergun, November 4, 1982, the day after Ergun's 16th birthday. If Emir is right, the oldest that Ergun could have been converted was 15 years old and a Sophomore in High School.
Jerry Tacket pursued him for four years/Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, & Senior years- Again the oldest Ergun could have been converted was 15 years old and a Sophomore in High School. The most Jerry could have pursued him was two years.
He was 18 years old, almost in college in 1982/during his conversion- His 18th birthday was November 3, 1984, almost a full two years after Emir's conversion. Again the oldest Ergun could have been converted was 15 years old and a Sophomore in High School.
He was 14 years old/High School Freshman in 1978 -Ergun was born, November 3, 1966. His 12th birthday was November 3, 1978.
His brothers converted when he was in college- According to Unveiling Islam, Erdem converted less than a year after Ergun's conversion. Emir converted November 4, 1982 a year after Ergun's conversion during the fall of Ergun's Junior year.
Ergun's father divorced his mother, because Ergun and his brothers converted to Christianity. Ergun's parents divorce was finalized in 1978, at least 2-3 years before Ergun's conversion.
Ergun lost his family when he converted to Christianity. Ergun's parents apparently separated around 1975, when Ergun was 8-9 years old. Their divorce was finalized in 1978, when Ergun was 11-12 years old. Ergun's mother had primary custody. When Ergun's father disowned him, he continued to live with his mother and brothers.
He came to America in 1978/14 years old/Freshman year of High School- Since the scandal, I have not found him claiming this one. It used to be one of his common memes. Ergun came to the United States before the birth of Emir, August 1970. Ergun's 4th birthday was November 3, 1970. Ergun grew up in the Ohio public school system from Kindergarten to Graduation.
Ergun has claimed several times that his father was married to multiple women at the same time. Till this day, he publicly maintains that he never intentionally tried to mislead anyone into thinking his father was a polygamist.
PS - Does the fact that Ergun continues to say these things, even after being corrected, point to intentional lies or accidental misstatements?
First, I should present Ergun's definition of the word "debate" as presented in his 2010 apology.
One gentleman believes it is misleading to call my interaction with people from other faiths and world religions “debates.” Since his definition of debate is limited to moderated, formal debates, that is his prerogative. He can call them whatever he wishes. My podcasts are readily available online through this website. If he finds them less than satisfying or helpful, then he does not have to listen to them. I do not offer them for his approval or his attention. Please feel free to look elsewhere. God has been gracious to call many Christians to practice evangelism and apologetics in a variety of ways.
The truth is, several evangelical apologists employ the “formal” debate template and are very effective in their presentations. Norman Geisler, Gary Habermas and William Lane Craig come to mind. Nevertheless, I will continue to do exactly as I have done. In fact, in order to attempt a measure of peace, I am more than happy to call my engagements “interviews,” or even “dialogues.” Since this is historically my method of choice, I shall continue to offer these podcasts here, for the edification of those who care to listen.
However, I would caution all evangelicals that no single method meets consensus. Nor is there only one exclusively biblical model. Certainly there is much good to be found in formal debates, and I also believe that there is enough room for all types of interaction. In fact I believe there is great value to be found in all forms, including conversational and informal methods.
Essentially Ergun counted certain interactions of his with people as "debates". In this context,one has to wonder, how he kept count. Well, every "debate" had two rules.
Nobody was paid or made money off the "debate".
No Christians were allowed to ask him questions.
So these were not just random conversations, according to Ergun. There were some boundaries. One of these interactions is mentioned in Unveiling Islam at the University of North Texas.
This is all possible. All Ergun has to do is give a lecture/sermon followed by a Q&A with non-Christians present. However there are a couple of reasons to doubt it.
Where are the audio recordings, video recordings, or written records? I have listened to many of Ergun's sermons. By my guess, he preaches about a 100 times a year: Sunday mornings, Sunday nights, conferences, youth camps. I still have over 60 Ergun sermons on my IPod that I have not listened (at least since I was a Seminary student). Ergun speaks a lot and the windfall is a minority of his sermons online. Surely with over a 100 events before hostile audiences there would be more of it online. Then again, perhaps all that made it onto the internet, even with hostile sources was Ergun's ITunes account. This is possible. Still, one would expect some Muslim, Calvinist, or Mormon trying to make a Macaca moment.
While Ergun probably has preached in 13 countries (listen to his sermons from Israel) and 35 states (listen to his lectures from Hawaii), what are the names of the countries and states where he debated? Ergun's ITunes account is gone, but from what I remember most of the podcasted "debates" were recorded in Lynchburg. More specifically, most were recorded in his university class attended almost entirely by evangelical students. Apparently these count, even though it would be hard to find a non-Christian to ask him a question. Still that is one state, Virginia. In Unveiling Islam, we have Texas. He has mentioned the University of California and the University of Chicago. OK, that is four states. (The Israel and the Hawaiian sermons do not count, because they were entirely Christian audiences.) Ergun has claimed to have traveled to Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Britain, France, Sudan, India, and Sweden. Those are nine countries, but did he have these "debates" in Iran? Ergun has yet to provide a list of the countries and states that he has had these "debates". Remember there is supposed to be more than 100 of them, with at least 61 with Muslims alone. Yet in 2007, he only gave the name of Mel White to the Rational Response Squad.
Having attended Liberty, exaggerated claims get made all the time. Rumor quickly becomes reported as fact. I am sure that whoever wrote Ergun's website biography may have heard somewhere about the 13 countries and 35 states. Yet Ergun's claims that he made about himself are not passive, but active. Ergun allowing a church to make these claims about him after the "controversy" is not passive anymore, but active. Ergun should provide a list, before he continues to make unsubstantiated claims.
PS ~ In Defense of Dr. Ergun Caner which is no longer on Norman Geisler's website gave the following defense.
The Charge that Caner Falsely Claims that he has had more than Sixty Debates with Muslims.—Critics challenge this statement and claim it is an intentional embellishment. But they mistakenly assume that all debates are formal. Caner lists many formal debates in the last ten years or so. But he has also engaged in multiple informal debates as well. There is no evidence to deny his claim. Indeed, given his numerous encounters with Muslims, it is reasonable to assume there were at least sixty.
This defense makes it even more ambiguous about what Ergun means by "debate". Under what criteria did he keep count. Obviously, if Norman is right, Ergun does not seem to be using the ruled criteria that he pronounced.
I don't know, if Ergun speaks Arabic or not. I have seen evidence that he spent three years in French club. His Swedish mother studied in Paris, so it is likely that she spoke some French. Outside of this 2002 mention, I have not heard a non-blogger mention that Ergun spoke French.
The heightened interest in Islam has drawn each of the Caner brothers into additional debate settings at mosques and universities, speaking in English, French, and Arabic with Muslim scholars. And they have been interviewed by the BBC, CNN, Moody Broadcasting Network, Salem Radio Network, and USA Radio. Talk show invitations have come from Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Marlon Maddux, and Zola Levitt.
Ergun Mehmet Caner was raised as a devout Sunni Muslim along with his two brothers, and became a Christian in high school. A public speaker and apologist, Caner has debated Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and other religious leaders in thirteen countries and thirty-five states. He has a Masters degree from The Criswell College, a Master of Divinity and a Master of Theology from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, a Doctor of Theology from the University of South Africa, and is the Provost and Vice President of Academic Affairs at Arlington Baptist College in Texas.
For those that remember, the words in bold have history.
As of last July, the biography saidCaner had debated “Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and other religious leaders in 13 countries and 35 states.”
Perhaps the church simply found that sentence on the internet somewhere, because Ergun's website still says the following:
Ergun Caner is a Professor & Apologist at the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary and Graduate School in Lynchburg, Virginia. Raised as a devout Sunni Muslim along with his two brothers, Caner converted in high school. After his conversion, he pursued his call to the ministry and education. He has a Masters degree from The Criswell College, a Master of Divinity and a Master of Theology from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and a Doctor of Theology from the University of South Africa. He has written numerous books with his brother, Dr. Emir Caner, who is the President of Truett-McConnell College, a Baptist college in Georgia.
~http://www.erguncaner.com/biography/
September 11, 2001, our nation was attacked by Al Qaeda. Thousands dead and our nation in mourning, a preacher was sought after by many to explain what happen. Trusted and chosen, Dr. Ergun Caner was selected to speak at Preston Wood Baptist Church late 2001, shortly after 9/11. How did Ergun use his trusted privileged position? He worked his tail off to lie his tail off.
They trusted him
I want to spend about fifteen minutes explaining to you why they did what they did and perhaps answering some of your questions as to what may happen next.
He lied to them
I was born in Sweden, raised in Turkey, came to America in 1978.
We trusted him
I mean I never had been in a church. I never truly been around many Christians. There’s not that many of them in Turkey or in Sweden. Coming to America, I’d lived under the misconception that you hated me as a Muslim.
He lied to us
On Thursday night, I tackled that preacher. Man, I grabbed a hold of him. I grabbed a hold of him and said I want this Jesus. I want saved. That night we went to a thing called afterglow. That is where all the youth go to Denny’s or IHop or Waffle House and hang out. My first act as a new believer in Jesus Christ was I got the biggest piece of ham they had. I never had it. Now, I’m a ham eating man baby. As a matter of fact the greatest ham of all time, I am addicted to. I’ll even tell you the secret, but you can’t buy it. It’s called spam.
On Friday night, after I’d been to revival four days, after I’d gotten saved, after Jesus had forgiven me of my sin and released me from fear of the scales, when Jesus did for me what I could not do for myself I figured everyone in the mosque wanted to hear about this too. That was not the case. That night, November 4, 1982 my father faced Mecca, as was his custom and began his prayer time and my father disowned me, my hero, my father.
A year later still young in Christ, still with very bad English, I came forward in my little country church that loved me and I surrendered to preach and came forward and said God is telling me to preach. And I don’t know how they do it here at Prestonworld but in our church which was very mixed, very mixed bless God, my pastor stood up there and I came down the aisle and surrendered to the Gospel ministry and he said "Well bless God, he’ll be preaching his first sermon tonight." You guys ever heard a first sermon? I went up there with about that many notes, about 4 hours of preparation and lasted seven minutes. You know. I was like, "Jesus - uh - Devil - uh - lets sing 842 verses of 'Just as I am.'" But you see, at the invitation, both of my younger brothers stepped out. Both my younger brothers got saved.
My youngest brother is also in the fulltime gospel ministry. He teaches at Southeastern Seminary. My middle brother is a Christian father and lay deacon in his church.
Is it over?
Transcript to Preview
The Following Preview Has Been Approved For All Audiences
By the Moses Model Amateur Youtube Association.
Coming Summer 2007 to a Hawaiian church,
I am just not a beach person.
What are the Odds?
I was born in Istanbul, Turkey. I am a Sand Monkey. Been called worse. I came to America after going to Beirut and then Cairo. And when I came to America in 1978 at the age of 14 years old, I lived a very urban life.
Just when you thought they were just misstatements
What are the Odds?
One kid who for four years hunted me down. He started when we were Freshmen in High School in Gahanna Lincoln High School in Gahanna, Ohio. He did not stop until I was a Senior going into my Senior year.
Same Lies
Until I was 18 years old, I hated you.
November 4, 1982
[Indiscernible] It was November 4, 1982.
Best since Prestonwood!
A year later I was called to preach.
A Seven Minute Sermon
It was a seven minute sermon. It was the night that both my brother got saved. Now listen…
PS ~ I listened to the Focus on the Family episode a year ago, but I did not digitize my hand written notes. Thank you to all the bloggers who blogged about this episode when it originally came out. You reminded me about the connections to this video series. Also a special thank you to Majestatic whose blog was pretty much the exact same thing that I am trying to do in my video series. I am constantly struck by how helpful the frontline podcasters and bloggers have been to me. Thank you.
Ergun maintains that he never intentionally misled anyone. What are the odds that I can provide you with three more examples of him claiming he converted the same day that his brother?
The first example was from 2007, here is one from 2005:
Decatur Baptist clip:
“I went home and told my father. I said, ‘Abbi, I am born again. I’m saved. It was November 4, 1982 and it was the last day I saw my father. No, no, don’t feel bad for me. You say, ‘well that’s horrible.’ And yes, on some existential level it might be. But you don’t understand, Hadith volume 9 number 57, Mohammed speaking, ‘Anybody changes his Islamic religion, kill him.’ In 38 countries around our globe that is precisely what takes place. Every Friday Jumu’ah prayer, midday, those who have converted from Islam to Christianity are taken out to the city square, buried up to their waste and stoned to death. And we complain about someone being in our parking spot. My father disowned me as an act of mercy.”
Here is one from 2008:
The Downtown Church clip:
“I went home, November 4, 1982, I went home and told my Babba that I was a believer in Jesus. And of course you can guess what happened. I lost my home, I lost my family, kicked out and disowned. People, ‘ahhh’. Christians you are very sympathetic people. You are very, very empathetic which is a gift. I’m not. I never got that mercy gift, I keep waiting for. But I tell them that and people go ‘ahhh that’s horrible’. ‘We need to fill out a hallmark card’. ‘I tell you what, Monday, I am going to send a Forward about that story.’ Don’t feel sorry for me. 36 countries around the globe, for a Muslim to convert to Christianity, you are put to death. You are buried up to your waist in your burial cloth and stoned to death as a consequence of the capital crime of conversion. Some of the countries I travel in today, all of yall who are on Facebook, on Facebook look at our pictures man. Been to Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan. Put to death for converting. Mine wasn’t that bad. Besides, I had a new family. I was a Christian. Yall became my family.”
Generally Ergun falsely claims to have been a High School Senior in 1982 during his conversion.
Canyon Creek Baptist Sermon 7/31/11
“Jerry Tacket saw me isolated. Started my Freshman year and wouldn’t quit until mySenior year.
C3 Church Sermon 1/1/12
“Finally going into my Senior year, I decide, ‘You know what? I’ll show you.’ And I went, I walked, I said ‘alright, I’ll come, come, come I’ll come.‘ I walked into the Stelzer Road Baptist Church in Columbus, Ohio right near the airport.”
Fortress of Faith interview 6/4/12
“Interviewer: So a teenager friend, a Freshman in High School, engaged you with the love of Christ and built a friendship with you, but you rejected his attempts to try to get you to the gospel. You told him know a few times, but he prevailed.
Ergun: Yeah a few times, for three years, I told him, ‘no’. I didn’t want to hear anything about the gospel. I was, we were very devout Muslims. We lived in Columbus. My father was building the mosque that eventually came on Broad Street. We wanted nothing to do with you as Christians. If you can say openly hostile, maybe passively hostile however you want to say that, I wanted nothing to do with this guy, but he wouldn’t quit. You know, again how many of us, if we share the gospel and somebody says ‘no’ we move on. There was no moving on. He kept coming and finally going into my Senior year in High School, I decided I’d take him up on his challenge. And that’s when I became a believer in Jesus.”
If he converted as a High School Senior, the logical inference is that he was a High School graduate a year later when his brothers converted.
What if I can provide you with an example of him claiming to have converted November 4, 1982 with a bonus? What if I can provide you with Ergun saying also that he was in college when his brothers converted? Ergun maintains publicly to this day, that everything was unintentional: Both him saying he converted November 4, 1982 and him saying he converted his Senior year. If all of this is unintentional What are the odds that such an example exists?
If I may, I would like to review the last video. I neglected to mention that both Ergun and Emir claim they were converted on Thursdays.
In Unveiling Islam, Ergun says that he held out until the last day of the revival and converted on a Thursday. Emir says that he converted November 4, 1982, a Thursday. In the last episode, Ergun claimed Emir and Erdem converted on a Sunday.
Ergun maintains that he never intentionally misled anyone. What are the odds that I can provide you with two more examples of him claiming he converted the same day that his brother?
Ergun mostly claims in his sermons that he was a High School Senior when he converted in 1982. Ergun's Senior year was 1983-84, so he was not a Senior in 1982. However, he and his brothers claim Erdem and Emir converted about a year after Ergun. (Emir's conversion is even dated November 4, 1982.) The logical inference of his brothers converting a year after his Senior year, is that Ergun had already graduated by that time. Until recently, I only had two examples of Ergun directly claiming to have been in college during his brother's conversions. (These are going to be mentioned in an episode of "Does Emir Know?".) Recently, FBCWatchdog encouraged me to listen to Ergun's post scandal sermons and I found this one from Canyon Creek Baptist Church, July 31, 2011.
(32:50) “I moved to this country isolated from you as a Muslim. I looked different. I worshiped a different god. My father devout in the mosque, we build mosques like missionaries to you.
I want nothing to do with you people. I hate the Christians. I assume you hate me back.
I go into high school at Gahanna Lincoln High School, Gahanna, Ohio; isolated. One boy met me at my well. It wasn’t a guy on TV. It wasn’t somebody famous. It wasn’t TBN. It wasn’t Christian radio. It wasn’t somebody with purple hair crying purple tears. It wasn’t somebodies name who was on the side of a book or the side of a building, because I would have paid no attention to any of that.
You know who reached me for the gospel? One high school kid who wouldn’t shut up. Jerry Tacket saw me isolated. Started my Freshman year and wouldn’t quit until my Senior year. Invited me to everything, hotdog hogouts, pizza pig outs, ‘lock ins’.
‘Lock ins’. I would do a hotdog thing in a heartbeat, but ‘lock ins’ are of the devil. Three o’clock in the morning you want to stay up and do something. I want to sleep at three o’clock in the morning, instead of finding kids hiding in stair wells, praying together.
I said no to everything. He didn’t quit. I want you to think about the people that you love the most that don’t know Jesus yet. You invited them. You’ve prayed for them. You’ve loved them. You’ve brought them. They may have come to an cantata. They came to a special Sunday. They’ve come to a number of things then they started making excuses. They didn’t want to come anymore. Then after a while that they don’t even make excuses. They just don’t want to come. They maybe even make fun of you for coming. You love them. I know. You pray for them to be saved. I know, but after a while you stop inviting, because you know what they are going to say.
Here’s the deal. How many times we knock on a door. Jack Chick track in our hand. ‘Hey I’d like to invite you to’ Boom! Door slams. What do we automatically do? ‘Huh, he must not be one of the elect.’ I scratch him off my list and move to the next house. ‘Heathen!’ Not Jesus and not Jerry Tacket. He kept coming. Every time I said, ‘no’, he found a way to bring up a ‘yes’. He just kept coming. In my Senior year, when I finally decided, you know what, I’ll show you. I walked into the Stelzer Road Baptist Church in Columbus, Ohio, right near the airport."
As usual, he clearly stated that he converted during his Senior year. As usual, he also stated that Jerry Tacket pursued him for four years: Freshman year through Senior year. The next part is not so usual.
(43:35) "A year later, I am in college and I find out that God has met my
boys at the well, both my brothers have got saved. Somebody shared the
gospel with them, and someone shared the gospel with me."
As I mentioned above this is unusual. I have only found this claim in two other sermons. I am surprised that only a year after Geisler defended him, Ergun would pull out this whopper, especially since Unveiling Islam claims that Ergun was the one who invited Emir to church.
Around 22:00, Ergun begins to give his testimony and he says that Jerry Tacket pursued him for "four years" and he converted during his Senior year.
Ergun was born November 3, 1966.
His brother, Emir, was converted a year after Ergun, November 4, 1982.
Ergun's Senior year was 1983-84.
We don't know when Ergun converted, but in order for Emir to have
convert a year later, it was probably during his Sophomore year,
1981-82. His conversion could be no later than the fall of his Junior
year in 1982.
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