SBC Plodder: Don't get suckered by the 'Pastor jailed for holding Bible study' case

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SBC Plodder: Don't get suckered by the 'Pastor jailed for holdi...: Conservative Christians provide a thriving market for stories like the one making the rounds here recently about the Phoenix pastor jailed ...

C3 Church 1/1/2012: You're making things up again Ergun...

New Years Day Service - Special Guest Dr. Ergun Caner from C3 Church on Vimeo.

January 1, 2012, Ergun Caner spoke at C3 church.  During his sermon, he made the following statement:

[28:40] “And entering in to High School, that is exactly what I was.  I was, no questions, your biggest critic.  I was your enemy.  And you know what reached me for the gospel?  It wasn’t a guy on TV.  It wasn’t somebody with purple hair crying purple tears…or some singer…or someone who had written books.  It was one High School kid who wouldn’t shut up.  One kid who was never scared.  Jerry Tackett hunted me…Freshman year…Sophomore year…Junior year. ‘Dude you want to come with me to fourth quarter?’ ‘Dude you want to come to fifth quarter?’  ‘Want to come to the hotdog hog out…the pizza pig out?’ ‘Want to come to our church Youth Group meeting?’  ‘Want to come roller skating?’  I said ‘no’ a thousand different ways; a thousand different times; and a thousand different permutations.  ‘No! No! Shut up! Leave me alone!’  He never shut up.  He had the eyes that Elisha talked about.  Greater resources do we have than all the chariots they’ve got.  He knew his God was real, mine was fake and all he had to do was keep hunting me down. 

How many of us, if we go to somebody’s door and…or if we share with a colleague or friend …you knock on the door and oh God help you if you know on the door and you face hostility…and they slam the door in your face… Most people would go ‘huh, well he must not be one of the elect’.  ‘I will mark him off my list.’  ‘Enjoy Hell.’  ‘Move on.’ Not Jerry Tackett…he kept coming. 

Finally going into my Senior year, I decide, ‘You know what? I’ll show you.’  And I went, I walked, I said ‘alright, I’ll come, come, come I’ll come.‘” 

According to Unveiling Islam, Emir Caner converted a year later than Ergun, November 4, 1982.  Ergun was born, November 3, 1966 and graduated eighteen years later in 1984.  If Emir’s date is correct he converted during the Fall of Ergun’s Junior year in High School.  About a year before Emir’s conversion would have been from January 1981-till maybe May 1982 (the Spring of Ergun’s Freshman year and his entire Sophomore year).  Even Emir’s conversion date is a far cry from Ergun’s Senior year (Fall 1983-Spring 1984).  The point is, we don’t when Ergun converted, but it definitely was not his Senior year or even his Junior year. 

Later he also the following:

[34:17] “Year later, I’m disowned.  A year later, I am studying for the ministry.  I loss my family and I find out my church is my family.   Both brothers got saved.”

This whole quote seems to give the wrong idea.  After claiming to be a Senior, he say he was “studying for the ministry.”  This may be so, but he was studying as a Junior in High School.  He seems to give the impression that he was a High School graduate.  

He also says he was “disowned” and he loss his family.  This also is at the very least misleading.  He was disowned by his father, but he continued to live with his mother and brothers.  His parents’ divorce was finalized in 1978.  His mother had primary custody of him and his brothers.  When Ergun was disowned, his church may have been his family, but so were his mother and brothers.  

I am sadden to see that Ergun's truce with the truth has expired less than two years after his dismissal as LBTS President.  Unfortunately this is not the only 2012 example of Ergun saying he converted during his Senior year.

The C3 Sermon can be found here.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/new-years-day-service-special/id125373478?i=109068443&mt=2

Probably my only Ergun Caner gibberish video

Like many of you, I do not speak Arabic, Turkish, Pashto, Dari, or Farsi,.  When speakers of these languages say that Ergun was speaking gibberish; there is little way for me to tell.  However there is one phrase that Ergun has repeated at least three times: April 15, 2005; June 2, 2007; and February 28, 2008.

If he is really quoting a foreign language, one should expect the quote and translation to remain the same over the years.  They sound nothing alike.  Even if he made quoting errors over the years what are the odds that I discovered the only three examples that do not line up?   If you have any other examples, I would be glad to listen to them.

Do they sound the same to you? Skeptics are welcome.

The April 15, 2005 clip can be found here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpDm3Z9tI-M

The June 2, 2007 clip can be found here.  It is the second Islam lecture
http://evangelism.fbcpearlcity.com/resources.html

The February 28, 2008 clip is from Ergun's Rick and Bubba interview.  The links have recently gone dead.  I will try to get the interview up.  In the mean time, I can email you the interview.  You can request the mp3 at Mosesmodel@yahoo.com

Music:

"Monster" by Peach Stealing Monkies http://www.peachstealingmonkeys.com/music/

"A Year Ago" by Pixt http://ccmixter.org/files/Pitx/11068

Also I owe the authors of two youtube videos for a lot of the information in this video. First, "frizzleyfrozzle" was the first one who pointed out that Ergun had gave two different phrases with the same translation.


Also James White's "Ergun Caner and Arabic: A Review" has been the best thing that has been done on Ergun's "Arabic".



Also, while I cannot cite a specific video, we all owe a debt to Mohammed Khan who first pointed out Ergun's inconsistencies and gibberish.

PS ~ My video has been mirrored by a MCDebate.  The mirror has not been labeled a mirror or attributed to me.  The title, "Ergun Caner, Fake Ex-Muslim Evangelical Leader Speaks Gibberish In Order to Fool His Audience", is not something that I endorse.  I may hypothesize that it is true, but unlike many that I have cited above, I cannot prove.  I speak none of the possible languages.  Update 8/27/12 - MCDebate has apologized and attributed the video to me. 

Cited Links

Tim Lee's statements
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/05/after-11-months-liberty-university.html

September 25, 2010 article where Ergun says he did not lie.
http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2010/sep/25/caner-defends-background-bristol-speech-ar-524525/

The unedited Marine videos on Viddler
http://www.viddler.com/explore/jsin/videos/2/
http://www.viddler.com/explore/jsin/videos/1/

Unedited Marine Videos on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxmIMR1LNos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpDm3Z9tI-M

Ergun Caner's Apology
http://sbctoday.com/2010/02/25/statement-from-dr-ergun-caner/

Norman Geisler's statements
http://www.normangeisler.net/insupportofcaner.html
http://www.normangeisler.net/infurtherdefenseofcaner.html
http://www.normangeisler.net/indefenseofcaner.html

Ergun is married to his wife Emir :)

With all the listening to Ergun Caner sermons that I have done this summer, I needed this laugh.  Thank you internet for podcasting errors.  

Dr. Ergun Mehmet Caner

Ergun Caner was born as a Muslim and immigrated into America during his childhood.  Due to the persistent witnessing of a High School Christian friend, Ergun got saved.  As a result, he was disowned by his family, but Argun’s faith in Christ was so real that he forsook people he loved to follow God who loved him enough to die for him.  Now Ergun is training future pastors and missionaries for the gospel ministry.

I wanted to interview Professor Caner today for you to hear his life changing story to realize that Muslims can be saved in America and God can do a wonderful work in their life.  This is an exciting story, you will not want to miss.

I also discuss something he said in his book that he co-authored with his wife Emir, called ‘Unveiling Islam.’  I highly recommend this book, it can be found on Amazon.  Click here  

http://www.fortressoffaith.org/?s=ergun+caner
[I expect a correction soon] 

The podcasts can be found here.
http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/interview-dr.-ergun-caner/id486946417?i=116478388
http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/interview-dr-canner-part-2/id486946417?i=116478389

In the second interview, Ergun is told by the interviewer that he assumes Ergun came to America as a teenager.  No definite lie here, but Ergun does not correct him.  Later, Ergun says that he converted during his Senior year in High School.  I am going to jot that one down as an almost definite lie considering Ergun's unrepentant history. 

I am sad that 6/3/2012, Ergun finally was recorded with the Senior year fib again.  However, I am giddy that he is married to his wife, Emir.

H/T Watchdog

Is Norman Geisler calling Ergun Caner a liar?

This is just a small sample of Ergun saying he came to America in 1978.  Ergun came to this country before August 1970.  Ergun maintains that he never intentionally mislead anyone.  How does Norman Geisler reconcile this?  Norman states,  "It is well known that Caner became a US citizen in 1978."

Well known? 

June 24, 2004, Ergun published an article on World Net Daily entitled, HATRIOTISM' & MICHAEL MOORE: TURKISH MUSLIM SAYS 'FAHRENHEIT 911' WRONG ON LIBERATION OF IRAQ

"I am a Persian Turkish immigrant raised as a Sunni Muslim, and in the interest of full disclosure, I must state that I left Islam in 1982, and became an American citizen."

This statement was repeated when Ergun published another article on Crosswalk, 25 days later, July 19, 2004, entitled more simply: Michael Moore and "Hatriotism"

Here he repeated:

"I am a Persian Turkish immigrant raised as a Sunni Muslim, and in the interest of full disclosure, I must state that I left Islam in 1982, the same year I became an American citizen."

Again, Ergun, himself, wrote at least twice in 2004 that he became a citizen in 1982.  He stated this was a part of fully disclosing his conflict of interests.  How can it both be "well known" that Ergun became a citizen in 1978 and "in the interest of full disclosure" that he became a citizen in 1982?

In fact does not both the 1978 and 1982 dates sound a little odd?

Ergun turned 12, November 3, 1978.  Did Ergun really become a US Citizen at the age of 11 or 12?  While not impossible, he seems rather young.  Ergun turned 16, November 3, 1982.  While possible, did Ergun really become a US Citizen at the age of 15 or 16?

It seems more likely that Ergun would become a citizen as an adult, after his eighteenth birthday, November 3, 1984.

"Caner was born in Stockholm, Sweden, became an American citizen in 1984 and a born-again Christian in 1982."

 In fact, The Free Lance -- Star reported August 2, 2003 that Ergun received his citizenship in 1984. 

So we have one year provided by Norman, which he says it was "well known" that Ergun gained his citizenship as a preteen. 

We have another year, printed by Ergun himself, that says he gained his citizenship around 15 or 16.

We have yet another year reported by a newspaper that says Ergun gained his citizenship near adulthood in 1984.

I think it is safe to say that it is not in any way "well known" when Ergun received his citizenship.  It is also pretty safe to say that Norman seems to call Ergun a liar; because Ergun himself wrote multiple times that he received his citizenship in 1982. 

So who do you think is telling the truth?

Unedited sources for the video clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpDm3Z9tI-M
http://evangelism.fbcpearlcity.com/media/msg-dr-caner.mov
http://library.ggbts.edu/Chapel/Missions/2010-2-13_MIssionsConference_CultureClash_PM-Evening-PlenarySession_DrErgunCaner.mp3

Norman Geisler's comments
http://www.normangeisler.net/articles/ErgunCaner/

Three articles written by Ergun Caner in 2004 where he claims to have become a citizen in 1982.
http://www.wnd.com/2004/06/25245/
http://jewishworldreview.com/0604/hate-riotism.php3
http://www.crosswalk.com/1274146/

The Free Lance Star that wrote that Ergun received his citizenship in 1984
http://news.google.com/newspapers?sjid=0QgGAAAAIBAJ&pg=6928,333707&dq=ergun+caner+1984&id=cTMzAAAAIBAJ

Music: Tuba Waddle,  Rags 2 Riches, and Green Leaves all provided by audionautix.com

Cited Links

Tim Lee's statements
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/05/after-11-months-liberty-university.html

September 25, 2010 article where Ergun says he did not lie.
http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2010/sep/25/caner-defends-background-bristol-speech-ar-524525/

The unedited Marine videos on Viddler
http://www.viddler.com/explore/jsin/videos/2/
http://www.viddler.com/explore/jsin/videos/1/

Unedited Marine Videos on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxmIMR1LNos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpDm3Z9tI-M

Ergun Caner's Apology
http://sbctoday.com/2010/02/25/statement-from-dr-ergun-caner/

Norman Geisler's statements
http://www.normangeisler.net/insupportofcaner.html
http://www.normangeisler.net/infurtherdefenseofcaner.html
http://www.normangeisler.net/indefenseofcaner.html

Strawmen are not your friend

No matter where you are on the Evolution v. Creationism spectrum, you should avoid strawmen.  The following passage should never be taught to children, much less be in their textbooks. 

“It was very exciting when the first men walked on the moon in 1969. When scientists eagerly studied the moon soil and moon rocks, they found that the moon appeared to be about 6000 to 10,000 years old. This was not surprising to scientists who were Christians, because the Bible indicates that the Earth is also somewhere between 6000 and 10,000 years old. We know that our moon and Earth are about the same age, since God created Earth on the third day and the moon on the forth day of creation.”

Is the fossil record complete?

[I will eventually post something on embryonic cell lines, but I need to perform more research on the subject.]

My parents gave me some magazines from the Institute of Creation Research.  I was amazed to read that the fossil record was considered by creation science to be nearly complete.  Fossilization is a chance process by which some of a creature is preserved by replacing organic matter with rock.  The general model assumes that natural forces destroy most carcasses before they would even have a chance to fossilize.   The fossils that are preserved are a small minority that survived until fossilization, during fossilization, and after fossilization.  These fossils are accumulated over a billion years. 

Obviously the creation model assumes that fossilization is far more likely.  Instead of a billion years, the creation model advocates that all fossils were formed in a matter of thousands of years.   Fewer creatures lived and died and a much larger proportion were preserved.   However were about 100% preserved?  I would like to propose a few reasons why I do not think the Creation model is completely amicable to fossil formation.

Meteors

Then the third angel blew his trumpet, and a huge star burning like a torch fell from the sky; it landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 8:11 (Now the name of the star is Wormwood.) So a third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from these waters because they were poisoned. ~ Revelation 8:10-11

The Chesapeake Bay Impact Crater 

 There are about 178 known fossil craters buried in different layers of strata.[Earth Impact Database]  The Chesapeake Bay Impact Crater, the largest crater in the United States, is close to home.  A meteor more than two miles wide slammed into the earth with more force than all the nuclear weapons on earth combined.  The general model puts the impact at around 35 million years ago during the Eocene [Bolide] According to Creation Scientist John R. Baumgardner, PhD, the Eocene occurred after the Flood, so the meteor struck sometime four thousand years ago. 

Answers in Genesis proposes that all 178 or more collided with the earth mostly during the flood year or close afterwards.  Most of the craters were buried in sediment at the level in the newly deposited geologic column they struck.  Therefore meteors with the forces of atomic weapons collided with the earth at a basic rate of one every few days.  These impacts would seem to me to destroy large amounts of fossils around the globe. [A Biblically-Based Cratering Theory]

Also another point about the meteors, Meteors follow trajectories governed by gravity.  These meteors would have been destined to hit the Earth for millennia. 

God saw all that he had made – and it was very good! There was evening, and there was morning, the sixth day. ~ Genesis 1:31

 So God created the Solar System with swarms of meteors that were going to hit the earth during the flood year.  He called this “very good”.  The flood seems almost like an act of mercy for drowning the people before they could die in an apocalypse from the sky.  During the tribulation only one meteor fell, but the Flood event had over a hundred.  God clearly sent missiles with nuclear equivalent power to earth from week one dedicated with wiping out mankind on an appointed date. 

Water Velocities of Ocean Currents

Most creationists believe that Noah’s Flood both deposited the sediments and then carved the terrain into canyons and hills.  So in order to deposit the sediment, the flood first had to create or find the sediment.  Considering that it is unlikely that a mile of sediment was just lying around, in 1994, some researchers at the Institute of Creation Research constructed a computer model that estimated the water velocity of Noah’s Flood.  According to them the currents were moving at about 40-80 meters per second.  Water at these speeds would erode large amounts of rock and distribute it over extensive areas in the short amount of time provided by the flood year. [Patterns of Ocean Circulation over the Continents during the Flood]

In 2010, scientists discovered the fastest ocean current moving around Antarctica.  They clocked it at 7.9 inches per second or 0.20066 meters per second. These creation scientists are postulating that the currents during Noah’s flood would have been 200 to 400 times faster than the currents today. These currents do not seem amicable to fossil preservation. Bones could have easily been washed away with skeletons separated from each other. I am not a geologist, but if these things are grinding up rock it does not seem like the carcasses have much of a chance. Anything that can do it to a rock …can likely do it to you. [Fastest Ocean Current Flows Beneath Antartica]